[lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

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[lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Peter Karman
Lucifers,

While Apache Lucy has been an active project with maintenance releases for
several years, the Project Management Committee (PMC) which governs the project
within the Apache organization has not grown in that time. One of the indicators
of the project's health is whether it attracts new committers and new leaders
over time. Apache Lucy has not.

Per the process described by the ASF[0] this email serves to initiate a thread
on what the community thinks should happen to the Lucy project.

Should we dissolve the PMC and move the project to the Attic? Should we continue
on as we are? Are there members of this list who are interested in taking on
leadership responsibilities as members of the PMC?

My personal view is that the code is still viable and useful and should continue
to be maintained by the volunteer community. That need not be within the ASF. We
could just as easily maintain it as a Github organization as within the ASF.

I look forward to hearing other folks' thoughts and opinions on this topic.

best,
pek

[0] http://attic.apache.org/process.html


--
Peter Karman  .  he/him/his  .  785.337.0405  .  https://karpet.github.io/
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Nick Wellnhofer
On 25/04/2018 16:48, Peter Karman wrote:
> While Apache Lucy has been an active project with maintenance releases for
> several years, the Project Management Committee (PMC) which governs the
> project within the Apache organization has not grown in that time. One of the
> indicators of the project's health is whether it attracts new committers and
> new leaders over time. Apache Lucy has not.

Besides, we only have three active PMC members which is the absolute minimum
to vote on new releases. I've also been the only active committer for the last
~2 years.

> Should we dissolve the PMC and move the project to the Attic? Should we
> continue on as we are?

I don't have the motivation to continue my work on a 0.7 release. Without
active committers, I think it's clear that the PMC should eventually be
dissolved. So it's mainly a question of when. Personally, I wouldn't mind to
wait about 6 months, make a final bugfix release if any issues with the 0.6
branch come up, then move to the Attic at the end of 2018. OTOH, I don't
expect any major issues, so we could move to the Attic right now, especially
if you or Marvin want to step down earlier.

Nick
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Peter Karman
Nick Wellnhofer wrote on 5/3/18 7:38 AM:

> On 25/04/2018 16:48, Peter Karman wrote:
>> While Apache Lucy has been an active project with maintenance releases for
>> several years, the Project Management Committee (PMC) which governs the
>> project within the Apache organization has not grown in that time. One of the
>> indicators of the project's health is whether it attracts new committers and
>> new leaders over time. Apache Lucy has not.
>
> Besides, we only have three active PMC members which is the absolute minimum to
> vote on new releases. I've also been the only active committer for the last ~2
> years.
>
>> Should we dissolve the PMC and move the project to the Attic? Should we
>> continue on as we are?
>
> I don't have the motivation to continue my work on a 0.7 release. Without active
> committers, I think it's clear that the PMC should eventually be dissolved. So
> it's mainly a question of when. Personally, I wouldn't mind to wait about 6
> months, make a final bugfix release if any issues with the 0.6 branch come up,
> then move to the Attic at the end of 2018. OTOH, I don't expect any major
> issues, so we could move to the Attic right now, especially if you or Marvin
> want to step down earlier.
>

Thanks, Nick.

Given the relative silence on this thread, I think the time has come.

I will start a VOTE thread per the Attic page.

pek

--
Peter Karman  .  he/him/his  .  785.337.0405  .  https://karpet.github.io/
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Marvin Humphrey
In reply to this post by Peter Karman
On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Peter Karman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should we dissolve the PMC and move the project to the Attic? Should we
> continue on as we are? Are there members of this list who are interested in
> taking on leadership responsibilities as members of the PMC?

Sorry for the late reply; this email has been sitting half-done in my
Drafts folder for days. Although these questions have reasonably
straightforward answers, and none of the paths forward are wrong or
bad, it's been a bit challenging for me to choose amongst them, given
the gratitude I feel towards the rest of the Lucy community.

> My personal view is that the code is still viable and useful and should
> continue to be maintained by the volunteer community. That need not be
> within the ASF. We could just as easily maintain it as a Github organization
> as within the ASF.

All software projects have a life cycle, and new technologies rise all
the time. In my time as an Incubator administrator and on the ASF
Board, I've seen many great projects complete their arcs sooner than
Lucy.

The ideal for the ASF is not that codebases should last forever, but
for those who participate in ASF communities to be willing to
participate in another ASF project. As an ASF advocate, I hope you've
all had a good experience here.

It's been about a year and a half since I've actively developed Lucy
and Clownfish. They were my main gig for a decade, for which I feel
incredibly fortunate; now other things have taken priority, and at
this point it's hard to foresee returning to active development.
However, thankfully we have not come across any sort of soul-crushing
security or legal problems, so the maintenance burden hasn't been a
heavy lift.

It would be fine with me to continue for some time.  It would also be
fine to retire. I'm OK with whatever path the community chooses.

Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Peter Karman
Marvin Humphrey wrote on 5/8/18 4:07 PM:

> On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Peter Karman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Should we dissolve the PMC and move the project to the Attic? Should we
>> continue on as we are? Are there members of this list who are interested in
>> taking on leadership responsibilities as members of the PMC?
>
> Sorry for the late reply; this email has been sitting half-done in my
> Drafts folder for days. Although these questions have reasonably
> straightforward answers, and none of the paths forward are wrong or
> bad, it's been a bit challenging for me to choose amongst them, given
> the gratitude I feel towards the rest of the Lucy community.
>


That seems right and appropriate. After all, every project starts with an idea
and an initial implementation, and in Lucy's case, that was with you. If you
didn't have mixed feelings, I would be surprised.


> All software projects have a life cycle, and new technologies rise all
> the time. In my time as an Incubator administrator and on the ASF
> Board, I've seen many great projects complete their arcs sooner than
> Lucy.

>
> It would be fine with me to continue for some time.  It would also be
> fine to retire. I'm OK with whatever path the community chooses.
>


At this moment, while Lucy is stable and the community quiet and we still have
the votes, it seems like a good time for an ending. Like you observed, projects
all have cycles. Lately I've been interested in how projects end well. One thing
I've observed is that they end well when everyone walks away happy and willing
to work together again. I feel that way in this case.

That assumes there are enough people still involved that there can be a mutually
satisfying and agreed-upon "walking away". The last project I was part of
(swish-e.org) ended in a gasp, where I was the last committer around, and I
don't want to repeat that.

Since you and Nick are fine either way, I think we should go out while we have
the votes to do so. That seems like the Apache Way, respecting the process and
the community.

pek

--
Peter Karman  .  he/him/his  .  785.337.0405  .  https://karpet.github.io/
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Marvin Humphrey
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Peter Karman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Lately I've been interested in how projects end well.

The ASF's Attic process is worth thinking about in that regard. The
ASF insists that retirement serve as an inflection point, and that
stakeholders be properly informed. It's different from the uncertainty
of a codebase which slowly becomes unmaintained, which is common for
open source projects in the wild.

> One thing I've observed is that they end well when everyone walks away
> happy and willing to work together again. I feel that way in this case.

Absolutely.  This community has been so consistently pleasant and
inspiring. In the future, can I please be so lucky as to find similar
environments and collaborators? That's asking too much, but I want it
anyway!

> Since you and Nick are fine either way, I think we should go out while we
> have the votes to do so. That seems like the Apache Way, respecting the
> process and the community.

I volunteer to take care of all the technical aspects of retiring the
project. I know the routine well already, having taken care of
retirement matters for eight or so Incubator podlings.

Marvin Humphrey
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Nick Wellnhofer
On 13/05/2018 18:51, Marvin Humphrey wrote:
> Absolutely.  This community has been so consistently pleasant and
> inspiring. In the future, can I please be so lucky as to find similar
> environments and collaborators? That's asking too much, but I want it
> anyway!

Me too. In all my open source ventures, Lucy has been the most enjoyable
experience. And that's largely thanks to you, Marvin, being an exemplary
project leader.

Nick
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Re: [lucy-dev] [RFC] Moving Lucy to the Apache Attic

Peter Karman
In reply to this post by Marvin Humphrey
Marvin Humphrey wrote on 5/13/18 11:51 AM:

> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Peter Karman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Lately I've been interested in how projects end well.
>
> The ASF's Attic process is worth thinking about in that regard. The
> ASF insists that retirement serve as an inflection point, and that
> stakeholders be properly informed. It's different from the uncertainty
> of a codebase which slowly becomes unmaintained, which is common for
> open source projects in the wild.
>

Agreed. I like that the cycle of life is spelled out so clearly.

>
> I volunteer to take care of all the technical aspects of retiring the
> project. I know the routine well already, having taken care of
> retirement matters for eight or so Incubator podlings.
>


Thank you for volunteering! I gladly accept.


--
Peter Karman  .  he/him/his  .  785.337.0405  .  https://karpet.github.io/